Author Topic: The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!  (Read 2925 times)

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Offline Glenghis Khan

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« on: October 27, 2007, 05:59:06 PM »
This was an ad on Howstuffworks, it may have been posted before:

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/070601-006-teog.html?cid=g1193&s_kwcid=ContentNetwork

These things are always interesting.

Offline SBF

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2007, 06:51:34 PM »
They're never interesting.
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Offline Toby Beau

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2007, 06:52:44 PM »
Quote
The religions of this world have created many gods of wood, stone and other material. Others exist only in the minds of men. The ancient Greeks alone served 30,000 gods and modern Hindus worship 5 million gods! Truly, there are, and have always been, “gods many, and lords many.” Yet, the God of the Bible created all the materials that men use to design their own gods. But, as Paul said, “there is not in every man that knowledge.”


Oh... THAT'S how we know the "God of the Bible" is the true one.  :roll:
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Offline Hubbub

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2007, 07:34:16 PM »
Jeez.  Once again, nothing I or many of us haven't seen many times before.  We could write these sites we've seen these lame arguments so many times.  We could have written a formal response before he even published the article (if we cared).  And yet, every time it's presented like "AHA! Gotcha you crazy atheists/agnostics!".

The "God-proof" formula:

1.  "Random Chance" strawman/incredulity argument
2.  "Complexity of life" incredulity argument
3.  Big Bang=Abiogenesis=Evolution=Darwinism=Atheism... bash one of your choice
4.  Science is like bowls.  Evolution has holes.  
5.  Oversimplify the "Big Bang"
6.  Pretend the big bang violates the first law of thermo.
7.  Play semantics with the second law of thermo. ("disorder" nonsense)
8.  Assert that all created things must have a creator
9.  Stick fingers in one's ears

Done.
YAY, I ANSWERED THE BIGGEST QUESTION EVAR!!!

Offline triumphene

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2007, 07:39:56 PM »
Mathematic proof that god DOESN'T exist!

possible number of gods (n): infinity
chance of any one god existing: 1/n = 1/infinity = zero

:P
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Offline CurtC

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2007, 11:41:29 PM »
I'd like the chance to corner him on his perfect clock proof. Somehow, using the laws of physics to build a pendulum is an example of man's imperfection, but using the laws of physics as they relate to the rotation of the Earth is perfect and God-worthy. Also, quantum mechanics causes the Cesium atom to have a hyper-find state transition, and this is God-worthy as well.

It seems like one clock is better than the other, but it's just a matter of degree, not of kind. He starts off with the example of how they used to use the rotation of the Earth, but the fact is that the rotation is variable, and it's slowing down. That's Godly perfection?
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Offline Noah R. Miller

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2007, 03:26:18 AM »
Quote from: "Toby Beau"
Quote
The religions of this world have created many gods of wood, stone and other material. Others exist only in the minds of men. The ancient Greeks alone served 30,000 gods and modern Hindus worship 5 million gods! Truly, there are, and have always been, “gods many, and lords many.” Yet, the God of the Bible created all the materials that men use to design their own gods. But, as Paul said, “there is not in every man that knowledge.”


Oh... THAT'S how we know the "God of the Bible" is the true one.  :roll:



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Offline seanahan

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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2007, 03:16:35 PM »
I skimmed this over a little bit and I initially thought it was a joke.  An 8-year old could come up with better arguments.
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Offline sgufan101

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2007, 12:42:28 PM »
Hundreds of proof of God's existence:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

My personal favourite:

ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPLETE DEVASTATION
(1) A plane crashed killing 143 passengers and crew.
(2) But one child survived with only third-degree burns.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
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Offline Sabbie

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2007, 01:15:40 PM »
Quote from: "sgufan101"
Hundreds of proof of God's existence:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm


ARGUMENT FROM CREATION, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY  
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.
(2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

This happens most.

Offline Apeiron

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2007, 01:22:16 PM »
I've just read the article 'proving' God's existence, and am once again disappointed that they haven't even thought of a new fallacious argument. The same old stuff is repeated again and again. Some sentences contain four or five fallacies and/or misunderstandings within them. In a single sentence!

Example:

Quote
Over and over, these “theorists” try to explain how life evolved from inanimate material into more complex life forms until it reached the pinnacle—human beings.


1. Not really a fallacy I guess, but why is "theorists" between quotation marks? It's not as if theoretical scientists are just guessing, and it's not as if evolution is a purely theoretical field. On the contrary!
2. Evolution does not say anything whatsoever about inanimate matter. This shows a deep misunderstanding of what evolution is.
3. Human beings are not "the pinnacle".
4. The sentence implies that evolution has come to an end.
5. "Over and over"? What is that supposed to mean? The basic theory of evolution has been the same since publication. Great advancements have been made and lot's of details have been worked out, but it's not as if the entire theory is different.

Offline Skeptical Gadfly

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2007, 10:49:41 PM »
The existence, or non-existence, of god cannot be "proven".  The word "proof" is only meaningful in logical or mathematical statements.  The existence or non-existence of god is a belief.  I am an atheist.  That means I believe that god does not exist.  It doesn't mean I can prove he does not exist.  That would be a waste of time.  Belief systems are based on criteria.  The believers have different criteria than non-believers.  As an atheist, my primary criteria comes from science.  For believers, the criteria is usually from authority.  You will note the author is constantly quoting scripture.  When he refers to science it is without an understanding of the science referenced.  E.g., "no facts or proofs have ever been found to support it."  (evolution)  This is absurd.  What is the genome project if not millions of facts supporting evolution?  Their belief in god prevents them from believing in evolution.  There is no bridging this gap.  They choose to believe, I don't.  The existence of god can't be proved.  It can't be dis-proved.  End of argument!
quot;The unexamined thought is not worth thinking."

Offline Hubbub

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2007, 01:25:15 AM »
Quote from: "Skeptical Gadfly"
The existence of god can't be proved. It can't be dis-proved. End of argument!


Of course.  But it's a good exercise to point out exactly what the fallacies are in such an argument.  True, the word "proof" is thrown around too slap-dash, especially by religious fundamentalists.  If in an argument, someone whips out these gems and you just point out it's not actually a proof... fine, but that doesn't mean it can't be a good point or argument for the existence of a god.  By dissecting the fallacies, you demonstrate why it isn't a good argument.

In addition, applying logical arguments to scientific questions can tell us some very important things.  We can use logical paradoxes to establish prior plausibility of a hypothesis or phenomena.  For instance, the Michelson-Morley experiment did not disprove the ether.  It showed that the ether was neither moving nor stationary with respect to the earth.  Somewhat of a paradox, so the scientific community no longer deemed the ether hypothesis to be plausible.

Granted, God is not science, but if looking for a meta-physical truth, assessing the logical implications of a god can help you assign a prior plausibility to theism.  "Can an all-powerful God create a mountain so massive that He himself cannot move it?"  I'm stumped by that one.  Anyone heard of a good answer to it?

Offline hastrong

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2007, 04:09:52 AM »
Quote from: "Skeptical Gadfly"
The existence or non-existence of god is a belief.

I guess we can play that game until or unless an invulnerable 3000-foot tall Yahweh appears and starts demolishing San Francisco block-by-block.  Then it's an empirically attested fact. :-)
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Offline Skeptical Gadfly

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The Existence of God - Scientifically Proven!
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2007, 09:43:59 PM »
Quote from: "Hubbub"
"Can an all-powerful God create a mountain so massive that He himself cannot move it?"  I'm stumped by that one.  Anyone heard of a good answer to it?


It sounds like another linguistic problem.  Perhaps its a "logical paradox."

I don't disagree with your argument.  It is important to be able to identify bad science, logical fallacies, etc.  Not that these will be convincing to your opponent.  But it is important if you are debating in front of others who might be swayed to your viewpoint.  

However, what I really meant to state was, there is a logical problem with the concept of "proof" in such debates.  In fact, the minute you attempt to "prove" things, you leave the realm of science and enter the realm of the believers.  As an atheist, I don't need to prove god doesn't exist.   I'm comfortable with a high degree of probability that god doesn't exist.  Should god turn up at my door, I might even change my mind.  (Mormon proselytizers please stay away.)  

The believers, however,  are uncomfortable with probability.  They have to have proof!  In fact, god is a kind of metaphysical trick they use to escape from probability into eternity.  They don't need facts, they go straight to revealed truth.    Then, when you don't accept their proof, they want you to prove they are wrong.  This, of course, you can't do.  Then, when you can't do it, that becomes proof they are right.  You can't prove this stuff, it is all based on belief.  You can attack their logic, you can debate their science talking points ad infinitum, but you will never prove god does, or does not, exist.

Einstein said that "God does not play dice."  Because a universe in which probability formed the basis of reality was unacceptable. It was a world in which god could not exist.  Today, things have changed.  With the advent of quantum mechanics, per Steven Hawking, "Thus it seems Einstein was doubly wrong when he said, God does not play dice. Not only does God definitely play dice, but He sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen."  It would seem that probability is the best evidence there is for the non existence of god.

"If god is all knowing, then certainty exists
But nothing is certain, therefore, god does not exist!" Skeptical Gadfly2000

Of course, I can't prove any of this.

For reference, you can read the lecture by Hawking at http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/dice.html
quot;The unexamined thought is not worth thinking."

 

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